N-P-K

[Guest X]

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[JohnF 0]

Yes it is. I don't think peppers need a lot of fertilizer . I use one quarter strength strength 15-30-15 a couple of times on the seedlings and the one half strength a couple of times during the growing season.

 

Sì lo è. Non credo peperoni bisogno di un sacco di concime. Io uso quarto forza 15-30-15 forza un paio di volte sul pianticelle e mezzo l'uno strenth un paio di volte durante la stagione di crescita.

[Luca dalla Tailandia 2]

I guess fertilizing is a bit like Art (but not as in "ars gratia artis").

 

Wether you know anything about art (to do spontaneous and 'natural' art) or you know everything about it, to be sure of the quality of what you're actually doing... just because "the in between" tends to be some kind of Plagiarism of something you liked or grabbed somewhere ...

 

With fertilizing is not exactly the same, (any comparision is just a more or less adequate analogy) but quite similar: wether you do not know anything about the chemistry behind fertilizing and lean basically on NATURE, high quality substrate, compost and such, though adding a little bit of some strange chemicals called fertilizer - or you know everything about this "science" called fertilizing and hence know exactly what you're doing when using them.

 

Most plants need quite different amounts of N, P, respectively K, during different growing states. If you're fertilizing, which actually means if you do base your technique on fertilizers instead of actually trust enough volume of substrate, generous pot size, compost, teas etc. (which I would like to compare with good spontaneous art again) - you need to know at least the following principles:

 

While making and using nutrients for Hydroponic systems, I learned that most plants need (consume) up to three times ( 1:±3) more K as N during the booming period. Later when building pods, the relation changes again, but the relative amount of K needed/used is still higher than Nitrates (relation N to K = 1:1.8), nearly the double. The amount of P needed (hence consumed if available) during the blooming- and the pod building period is also higher in relation to N which means about 1:±1,4 during blooming.

 

Hence, wether you're delivering a "complete, yet composed meal" as in Hydro, or just add some supplementary nutrition - these are strong facts one should be aware of. Do not add macro nutrients (in a NPK relation) which the plant does not really need or require during a certain period of groth, - if you add fertilizer, choose the right NPK composition for the respective period of groth

[Lonewolf 18,107]

The concept that different growing states requires different percentage of the three basic elements (N-P-K) is interesting and can help us in choosing the correct product for each phase.

 

However I'm quite lazy, so I use the same product (in powder soluble in water) during the whole season.

Past year I used a product from Bayer with the ratio 20:10:20, while this year I'm using a product from Compo with the ratio 20:20:20.

This year crop seems to be better for quantity and size of pods, but maybe this is correlated with highly raining May and June we had in North Italy.

 

Past year I got good results even mixing mould in some large pots with cow's manure a couple of weeks before repotting plants on that mould.

 

I think the most important think to get good results (in pots) is a high-quality mould; such a mould should provide sufficient nutrients for the plants for a single season ... fertilization is a necessary complement to transform good in better results.

[Luca dalla Tailandia 2]

Ciao nagalone,

 

The concept that different growing states requires different percentage of the three basic elements (N-P-K) is interesting and can help us in choosing the correct product for each phase.

 

Yeah, as I said: plants need- require and finally use different amounts of those macro nutrients. I made a graphic here (actually a Excel document) in which I roundet up (Bold) the N-P-K values which are used for "perfect" Hydroponics nutrient during stages. This gives us no information about what actually is contained in our soil, substrate, or what ever we use- (which may differ a lot). But as in Hydroponics we must deliver a "complete meal" it shows even better what plants require and consume during those stages. Well, it gives us a good hint what we should add in different growing stages. It also gives us an idea of what we shouldn't add in high amounts.

 

 

However I'm quite lazy, so I use the same product (in powder soluble in water) during the whole season.

The fertilizer industry loves people like you!

 

As for me I have been against so called "chemical fertilizers" and refused to use them for as long as I do gardening. But when I started Hydroponics I could not avoid them. Especially because you cannot find such "bio" product here in Thailand, and if- it's imported and extremely expensive. Actually I could not find a good choice of products for Hydroponics at all, - only one type which didn't even have information about the NPK relation! So I decided to learn about fertilizer composition and even how to make it from basic components.

 

Actually since some month, I compose my own fertilizers (actually nutrient solutions) myself from the basic raw materials which are of course the same the fertilizer industry uses. The micro nutrients (trace elements) are a little more tricky to handle, as they are used in very small amounts like copper (Cu) which only is needed by 0,1% or even less - 0,06 % for Molybdenum (Mo). All in all, it's not that difficult to do and most of the raw materials are commonly available, they are stuff like Potassium Nitrate (KNO₃) or Magnesium Sulfate (MgSO₄ * 7H₂O)

As soon as you have some basic equipment, your own fertilizer costs not even the tenth of the price you would pay elsewhere. But then again, I think it is more appropriate for people who use at least a few Hydroponic Modules. But then again you mustn't be lazy anyway!!!

[Lonewolf 18,107]

The fertilizer industry loves people like you!

 

For sure!

However I spend no more than 10 euro in fertilizers for the whole season and 240 plants; so that industries can't rely too much on me to increase their profits

Mould producers are much more happy for my hobby, as in 2008 I spent about 150 euro for 2400 liters of good mould

[Luca dalla Tailandia 2]

Mould producers are much more happy for my hobby, as in 2008 I spent about 150 euro for 2400 liters of good mould

 

Well, that was my next point in this "debate"....

Firstly I used "premium grade" imported (Germany, Norway) substrate, mold, mould (english) as well, and had great results. But here in Thailand I paid over 10 EUR for 20 L, and that is what people earn here in 2 or 3 days, and enough to feed a kid for a week! When I switched to a Thai product, it was infected with spores and pests and the hell what stuff that made my plants sick! The PH was much to high too, what I didn't realize either. I had extreme losses that went in the hundreds of grown plants.... before finding out what the actual reason was.

 

And that is another reason why I switched to Hydroponics.

 

But did you know that most of the mould (even Compo Sana and such) is pre-fertilized with exactly the same "stuff" we are talking about?

[Lonewolf 18,107]

But did you know that most of the mould (even Compo Sana and such) is pre-fertilized with exactly the same "stuff" we are talking about?

 

Yes.

Compo Sana is a good mould, but too expensive (13.5 euro for 80 liters)

I found a mould even better (looking at the results) of a minor trademark for about 5 euro/80 liters.

[mr_peperoncino 0]

i used NPK 15-25-35 for mor flowers and mor fruits

is very good

[Lonewolf 18,107]

While buying Chocolate Bhut Jolokia and other peppers and tomatoes seeds at www.chileseeds.co.uk, I also bought a bottle of their special fertilizer for peppers, Chilli Focus (just to try it).

 

This product should be specific for peppers, but it has a very strange ratio between macro-elements N-P-K, about 3:1:4

 

More info here:

http://www.chileseeds.co.uk/fertilizer_nutrients_feeding.htm

(by the way the contents table on the site doesn't match the one on the bottle and it's even more strange, 2.60 : 0.44 : 3.63)

 

Did anyone test this product?

 

I'll try it on some plants, just for test; the bottle contains 300 ml which are enough (on adult plants) for 30 liters of water, that is what's necessary to fertilize every two weeks (till october) only a dozen of plants.

[JohnF 0]

I haven't tried it but it seems a little high on the nitrogen. I use a 15-30-15 formula diluted.

[chefare 0]

This product should be specific for peppers, but it has a very strange ratio between macro-elements N-P-K, about 3:1:4

 

So they think peppers don't require a large amount of phosphorus.

Moreover, according with the table u linked all nitrogenum (N) in that fertilizer is in nitrate form (no ammoniacal or ureic): this means it will have a quick effect on the plants, but short duration in the time, and the fertilizer needs to be well diluited (nitrate is not persistent and the part that is not absorbed from the plants is wasted).

When there is also nitrogenum in other forms than nitrate the effect is more persistent because nitrogenum is gradually converted, in the soil, into nitrate form (plants need nitrogenum is before converted to nitrate form to absorb it from the roots).

[Luca dalla Tailandia 2]

So they think peppers don't require a large amount of phosphorus.

 

They need some actually - but according to my knowledge and experience, they need about half as much phosphorus as N and K.

Something like roughly 2:1:2 - but for the actual growing stage only. For the following stages the need of phosphorus increases gradually until it is highest just before and during the blooming stage. Afterwords, when the plants are having and developing pods, it decreases again. The consumption of Nitrogen is the lowest at that stage because growth of the actual plant is slowing down. It makes sense, doesn't it? Well, look at my formula above.

 

Moreover, according with the table u linked all nitrogenum (N) in that fertilizer is in nitrate form (no ammoniacal or ureic): this means it will have a quick effect on the plants, but short duration in the time, and the fertilizer needs to be well diluited (nitrate is not persistent and the part that is not absorbed from the plants is wasted).

 

ALL so called "chemical" fertilizers use nitrates which are provided through Calcium Nitrate Ca(NO₃)₂ and/or Potassium Nitrate KNO₃. Of course, this type of fertilizer needs to be diluted correctlly as follows: between 0.5 and 1.0 EC. Some may use even a 1.4 EC (electric conductivity) mix but here you have to consider the PH of fertilizer and soil, when using fertilizers with high "K" (and correct the PH of the fertilizer with diluted phosphoric acid), before going to action. Many people do a mistake when using "Tomato fertilizer" which is actually well suited for peppers in the growing stage. They dilute as the fertilizer info says - just because they ignore that tomatoes can handle nearly the double of the fertilizer concentration compared to what is recommended (and tolerated) for peppers!

 

When there is also nitrogenum in other forms than nitrate the effect is more persistent because nitrogenum is gradually converted, in the soil, into nitrate form (plants need nitrogenum is before converted to nitrate form to absorb it from the roots).

 

Compost or manure, vermi compost (or equivalent) have this ability only, but concerning the kind of fertilizer we are talking about, (as a matter of manufacturing facts) one needs to use mineral salts like described above. Nitrogen is wether simply not soluble in water- or cannot be absorbed directly.Direct absorbtion is required though, as all other components are in such mineral form and will be absorbed directly. That is why other forms of nitrogen are unsuitable for liquid fertilizers. In so called "long effect" (or how ever they are called?) fertilizers in granular form, the mineral salt mixture (all NPK components) are of the same source CN or PN, but simply bind with gypsum to slow down absorption and hence get this effect.

[chefare 0]

They need some actually - but according to my knowledge and experience, they need about half as much phosphorus as N and K.

Something like roughly 2:1:2 - but for the actual growing stage only. For the following stages the need of phosphorus increases gradually until it is highest just before and during the blooming stage. Afterwords, when the plants are having and developing pods, it decreases again. The consumption of Nitrogen is the lowest at that stage because growth of the actual plant is slowing down. It makes sense, doesn't it?

Well, look at my formula above.

 

Yes, generally speaking all plants need more nitrogen while growing and less when they flower and develop pod.

In more chemical fertilizers nitrogen is both in form of nitrate and in ammoniacal form. Nitrate part is ready to be absorb as it is, while ammoniacal part has to be before converted by bacteria in the soil into nitrate form and this requires more time (not so long anyway).

So, for example, if in a complex fertilizer nitrogen component is calcium nitrate (nitrato di calcio), it has ready effect, while if it is ammonium nitrate (nitrato ammonico) the fertilizing effect is more diluited in the time due to ammoniacal part.

There are also formulation with slow or controlled release of nitrogen. These are useful because when nitrogen is converted in nitrate form, as already said, it is not persistent into the soil (while phosphorus and potassium are more persistent once fixed into soil).

Of course compost or manure, vermi compost (or equivalent), as u said, have slow effect too because they need to be degradated before elements are available for the plants.

Ok sorry for my english but i usually write italian only

[Luca dalla Tailandia 2]

Hi chefare,

 

Don't worry, your english is just fine! Nearly perfect (english isn't my mother tongue either, - but I cannot use that one because it is only understood by a total of some 400.000 people) I really appreciate the efforts (also from other people)!

 

In more chemical fertilizers nitrogen is both in form of nitrate and in ammoniacal form. Nitrate part is ready to be absorb as it is, while ammoniacal part has to be before converted by bacteria in the soil into nitrate form and this requires more time (not so long anyway).

So, for example, if in a complex fertilizer nitrogen component is calcium nitrate (nitrato di calcio), it has ready effect, while if it is ammonium nitrate (nitrato ammonico) the fertilizing effect is more diluited in the time due to ammoniacal part.

 

So you say, that in some (chemical or mineral based) fertilizers (quale realmente significa: alcuni, certa gamma, altri prodotti) the N-part is provided by urea or amoniac "derivates". Well I agree with you 100%, that a slow and bacterial sustained process is more natural and more efficient in a long term. On the other hand, I was assuming that such formulas were only used with organic (based) fertilizers. I also assumed, (Ho presupposto), that a fertilizer needs to wether be based on 1. ALL mineral salts are "ready to be absorbed directly", - or 2. the formula was based upon components (substances) that firstly need to be processed by the metabolic functions of bacteria. (Eventually ionised in the soil’s water and thus only slowly absorbed by the plants during that process). I thought, there were only 2 ways of making/composing fertilizers, because the different components need to be released with about the same effectivity (con circa la stessa efficacia).

 

Well, my knowledge comes from Hydroponics (mainly), where we have different rules to follow and respect. The basic nutrients (how we call fertilizer) must be soluble and are fully downgraded and ionized, called salts, sulfates, nitrates or phosphates. There is also use of nutrient solutions, which are based upon so called organic components that only break down over time and ionize as actual byproducts of bacterial digestion. But in a hydroponic system (which is based on soilless culture) this process brings lots of deposits (unlike in soils where this does not matter at all). These deposits are not tolerated by all systems, as they tend to clog (otturare) vital parts as Drippers or Nozzles. So using this kind of nutrients is possible but actually is quite a compromise.

[chefare 0]

Oh, well I think it's nice to have a mother tongue with 400,000 spoken people (Luxembourg language?), it's so exclusive

Effectivally I see there are great differences between chemical fertilization for hydroponics and coltivations in natural soils, in field. In the second case (field) tipically this scheme is used (simplifiyng): 1) fertilization with high phosphorus and potassium and low nitrogen before to seed or transplant ("concimazione di fondo"), when working the soil. This because in normal soils P and K are well fixed into soil (differently from nitrogen) and not removed by rain, so plants can absorb these nutrients when they need in the next months. 2) Fertilization usually with nitrogen based fertilizer while plants growth ("concimazione in copertura").

In hydroponics there is not interaction with a natural substrate and weather and u use a more accurate fertilization according with necessity of the plants in their different stages of growth (amount of nutrients and respective ratio) to obtain the best results. I found hydro is very interesting requiring a good knowledge about plants need since u have the total control on them. About the taste of product from hydro, u found there are differences with products from natural soil?

[Luca dalla Tailandia 2]

Oh, well I think it's nice to have a mother tongue with 400,000 spoken people (Luxembourg language?), it's so exclusive

Well, I think the "exclusivity" is perhaps more relevant for an outsiders than for us. I think that people from so called ethnic or cultural minorities have the choice between sticking together (in terms of solidarity) or opening up even more than people from big countries and nations. So when you open up to the world and many influences, it is in fact the contrary - you don't feel exclusive at all. While some people from "big nations", sometimes feel "exclusive" when there actually is no reason for that. So exclusivity is quite relative

 

 

About Hydroponics:

 

There are (a bit as in soil and pot cutivation) are two ways of doing:

 

1. You use ready and quality products, follow the directions and simply change the so called nutrient solution every 10-14 days.

In this case, you cannot do much wrong and it's quite easy to handle. The success is nearly guarantied.

 

2. You measure the EC (electric conductivity) of the soution regularly and try to optimize the nutrients concentration (eventually their composition) by observing the pants behavior, measure and regulate PH degradation (which is the main reason for changing the nutrient solution completely).

 

I actually design and build my own hydroponic systems, not for industrial use but on a small- and medium scale. They are made with low budget, sometimes with second hand parts and look like this:

 

 

 

 

It's a Hybrid, a combination of NFT (nutrition film technology) and Dutch Bucket.