Devabriel 95 Posted November 17, 2019 How many species and subspecies are known (named) at the moment? I heard 30 to 40 species from different sources. And of does witch are grown in the hobby? (With this I mean which species is it even possible to get seeds from as a private person at the moment in say Europe) Annuum var annuum Annuum var glabriusculum Baccatum var baccatum Cardenasii Chacoënse Chinense Eximum Flexuosum Frutescens Galapogense Lanceolatum Praetermissum Pubescens Rhomboidium Tovarii I figure I missed some that are grown and would be glad if someone would say which species/subspecies that would be. And cobincho which sometimes are given the name capsicum exile and sometimes chacoense is really a chacoense right? Exile doesn't really sound like a scientific name for a species. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Devabriel 95 Posted November 17, 2019 See that I forgot baccatum var pendulum Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oban 9,284 Posted November 17, 2019 You can find here a complete and updated list of Capsicum species discovered and surveyed up to this moment: https://www.pepperfriends.org/dbpf/speciecapsicum.asp 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lonewolf 18,106 Posted November 17, 2019 The page linked by Oban is updated and contains all the names accepted. There are some doubt regarding C.mirabile/C.buforum, C.cornutum/C.dusenii, C.geminifolium/C.lycianthoides. According some sources, these pairs are the same species. I do not agree for C.cornutum and C.dusenii; there are too much different populations of C.cornutum, some of which have never been examined in detail; for example the populations near Cunha with white corolla and 5-10 toothed calyx. Furthermore, the C.dusenii described in literature seems very different from C.cornutum; I've seen a couple of photos of flower of C.dusenii and it seems completely different from flowers of C.cornutum. I hope to see it in the wild, sooner or later. In the list is not present the Capsicum sp. 9 which in my opinion is a separate species. C.exile is an old name for C.chacoense. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lonewolf 18,106 Posted November 17, 2019 5 hours ago, Devabriel said: And of does witch are grown in the hobby? (With this I mean which species is it even possible to get seeds from as a private person at the moment in say Europe) Seeds of the following species are available: C.annuum C.annuum var. glabriusculumC.baccatum (syn. C.baccatum var. pendulum)C.baccatum var. baccatum C.baccatum var. umbilicatum C.cardenasii C.ciliatum (syn. C.rhomboideum)C.chacoense C.chinense . C.eximium . C.flexuosum C.frutescens C.galapagoense C.lanceolatum C.praetermissum C.pubescens C.tovarii 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Devabriel 95 Posted November 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Oban said: You can find here a complete and updated list of Capsicum species discovered and surveyed up to this moment: https://www.pepperfriends.org/dbpf/speciecapsicum.asp Thank you so much my friend! As I don't understand Italian it's quite hard to find the good stuff like this you are linking! I will let Google translate this looks exactly like what I am looking for! So 42 it is now! That's a lot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Devabriel 95 Posted November 17, 2019 36 minutes ago, Lonewolf said: Seeds of the following species are available: C.annuum C.annuum var. glabriusculumC.baccatum (syn. C.baccatum var. pendulum)C.baccatum var. baccatum C.baccatum var. umbilicatum C.cardenasii C.ciliatum (syn. C.rhomboideum)C.chacoense C.chinense . C.eximium . C.flexuosum C.frutescens C.galapagoense C.lanceolatum C.praetermissum C.pubescens C.tovarii So C.baccatum var. umbilicatum is present too but no more at the moment. I'll wasn't far off atleast:). C. Cilatium is the "new" name for Rhomboidium?! I thought it was the other way around! Fudge! thank you for correcting this my friend. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Devabriel 95 Posted November 17, 2019 42 minutes ago, Lonewolf said: The page linked by Oban is updated and contains all the names accepted. There are some doubt regarding C.mirabile/C.buforum, C.cornutum/C.dusenii, C.geminifolium/C.lycianthoides. According some sources, these pairs are the same species. I do not agree for C.cornutum and C.dusenii; there are too much different populations of C.cornutum, some of which have never been examined in detail; for example the populations near Cunha with white corolla and 5-10 toothed calyx. Furthermore, the C.dusenii described in literature seems very different from C.cornutum; I've seen a couple of photos of flower of C.dusenii and it seems completely different from flowers of C.cornutum. I hope to see it in the wild, sooner or later. In the list is not present the Capsicum sp. 9 which in my opinion is a separate species. C.exile is an old name for C.chacoense. Werry interesting yes that link is gonna be really helpful!!! A gold nugget of knowledge if there ever where! I really like the many different types that exists inside many of the species. It's understandable it makes it hard to classify but I find it's beautiful for lack of a better word. I hope more species will be present to the hobby to at one point in the future so it's gonna be possible to see them for oneself one day (to dream to go looking for myself is ofcourse a bigger dream;).) But truly many of the pictures of plants you have posted are so beautiful they are breathtaking! So exile is the same as chacoense. They do share a lot in common my accessions of chacoense and the plants I have named 'exil' here at home. Gonna be fun looking at more accessions in the future to see more difference and common attribute. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lonewolf 18,106 Posted November 17, 2019 As you may have guessed, Pepperfriends is the right place for enthusiasts of wild Capsicum 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rapace 9,606 Posted November 17, 2019 7 hours ago, Devabriel said: So C.baccatum var. umbilicatum is present too but no more at the moment. I'll wasn't far off atleast:). C. Cilatium is the "new" name for Rhomboidium?! I thought it was the other way around! Fudge! thank you for correcting this my friend. Let me take the opportunity of this topic just to "resume" one of my doubts about species/subspecies. C.baccatum seems to be (mabye, because this is my doubt) the only specie with 2 cultivated vars and 1 wild/semiwild var The other having vars is C.annuum which has the wild var (C.annuum var glabriusculum) which is characterized by small and juicy pods Nevertheless shapes of cultivars of C.annuum (or if you prefer C.annuum var annuum) are very different. Let's just thing about Thunder Mountain Longhorn, Lazzaretto Abruzzese, Cayenna(s) and so on which have very long pods...... and then switch to Topepo or to Satan's Kiss (among others) which have completely different shapes. But... al of them are classified as C.annuum var annuum ! Provided that the "equivalent" wild var for Capsicum baccatum is Capsicum baccatum var baccatum, having too small and juicy pods, I'm not able to perceive and to understand the two cultivated "vars" of Capsicum baccatum I can understand of course the difference of shape between Aji Amarillo or Aji Norteno (among others) and Bishop Crown or Aji Fantasy (among others). But....... noone of C.baccatum var pendulum and noone of C.baccatum var ubilicatum have juicy pods...... according to my knowledge / understanding it is difference is in the shape of the pods which defines the classification....... BUT... .why it's not applied the same "rule" so to C.annuum ? ...... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lonewolf 18,106 Posted November 18, 2019 21 hours ago, Rapace said: I'm not able to perceive and to understand the two cultivated "vars" of Capsicum baccatum Indeed it's not easy to understand which are the differences between a classical "umbilicatum" such as Rocotillo and other C.baccatum (pendulum). Of course the fruit shape is very different, but it's not enough. The first definition of the name was in "Flora Fluminensis" at the beginning of 1800, by Vellozo. The topic was examined again by A.T.Hunziker and G.E.Barboza in a short article published in Kurtziana on September 1998. Here one the the reasons to consider it as a different botanical variety: No giant cells in the internal surface of the fruits. Full article available via MP for who is interested (in Spanish). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Devabriel 95 Posted November 18, 2019 21 hours ago, Lonewolf said: As you may have guessed, Pepperfriends is the right place for enthusiasts of wild Capsicum Yes really a place for me.. just gonna need to take a course in some civilised language🤣 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rapace 9,606 Posted November 18, 2019 Thanks Claudio..... LOL .... never enough.... the extract of the article you posted is referring to "three other varieties of C.baccatum" (??). Well, I knew C.baccatum var baccatum and C.baccatum var pendulum........ what is the third one ? (are maybe the authors referring to C.pratermissum as a variety of C.baccatum). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lonewolf 18,106 Posted November 18, 2019 Probably the authors referred to: C.baccatum C.baccatum var. baccatum C.baccatum var. pendulum In my opinion there is no difference between C.baccatum and C.baccatum var pendulum, but in 1998 probably they had less knowledge than today, even at DNA level etc. Information varies over time. For example. I became crazy to understand a phrase written in 1999 by a Brazilian botanist. He wrote: "Capsicum é um gênero americano com apenas um táxon ocorrendo fora das Américas.". What? Which species (taxon) outside America? Where? Perhaps in the Sahara desert? I asked him (later); he was referring to Tubocapsicum anomalum; now we know it's not a true Capsicum. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rapace 9,606 Posted November 23, 2019 So..... just to "try to come to a conclusion"..... we have: C.baccatum var pendulum - domesticated - synonim: C.baccatum C.baccatum var umbilicatum - domesticated C.baccatum var baccatum - wild/semiwild Am I right.... or am I missing anything else yet ? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lonewolf 18,106 Posted November 23, 2019 Right. Sometimes also C.microcarpum is used as a synonim of C.baccatum var baccatum, but it's one of the many old names, not currently accepted. The same for C.pendulum instead of C.baccatum var pendulum. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Devabriel 95 Posted November 23, 2019 Great I was also a little bit wondering about it, but now it's clear.. Scientists should stick to a name and not change it so much, they should think about us poor normal growers 😈 (kidding I understand the need) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lonewolf 18,106 Posted November 23, 2019 19 minutes ago, Devabriel said: Scientists should stick to a name and not change it so much Look at this, page 11 of the original publication (7 in the PDF) ... https://webcomm.nmsu.edu/chile/wp-content/uploads/sites/60/2016/06/capeggnews21a.pdf It can give you an idea on how many variations there have been in the names of Capsicum species. Note that this paper too is out of date 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Devabriel 95 Posted November 23, 2019 "Kärt barn har många namn" (a bellowed child have many names) is a saying in Sweden, it's obviously what's happening with chili 🤣 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
