Fatalii or Yellow Trinidad Scorpio

[Luca dalla Tailandia 2]

I had 1 surviver of two possible during a 3 weeks absence from my home. It could either be a Trinidad scorpio plant, which I thought it was until the first pods turned into a bright yellow (well, some may call it orange)!

 

 

It is possible that it is a yellow Trinidad Skorpio. I got "Scorpio" seeds from Chris but he did actually not specify that it was the yellow strain (as far as I can deduce from his quite cryptic handwriting ). Do you remember Chris (if you are around) what it actually was? Well, otherwise it still could be a cross as well.

 

Anyone has a clue or an opinion about that pod? Thanks!

[PepperLover 0]

hey this is my fatalii i guess urs is trinidad S yellow , if u look to the end of ur pod ( the Apex )u will see that it goes longer and more thin that the fatalii , and the coloer in the fatalii is more yellow that orange.. ...

ooh one more thing i just noticed if u look at the crown (the calyx ) what holds the pod. u will see that in urs its bigger and covers more of the pod while in the fatalii smaller and not as extended.

add to all that the shape of the pod itself more wrinkly.

 

the red one is the Naga Morich .. super hot as u all know

[Bonnet 156]

umh nice! i think can be a good thing understand the original plant of chris (fatalii or T. Scorpion). Only with a name we can make a hypothesis.

[Luca dalla Tailandia 2]

Thanks for the input pepperlove. I guess it is not a Fatalii... as I only thought so because it was the only other option.

With the calyx you surely have a point!

 

umh nice! i think can be a good thing understand the original plant of chris (fatalii or T. Scorpion). Only with a name we can make a hypothesis.

 

The Skorpio seeds came from Chris, while the Fatalii came from a different source. But right - Chris could tell what strain it was (in case it is the Scorpio).

 

There is another Pod from the same plant that actually made me think of the Fatalii:

I guess I should show this picture as well!

 

 

This is actually a good example how one may look at things with a different eye, respectively how influenced one can sometimes be!

[Lonewolf 18,106]

The answer of Chris could be decisive in this case.

However there is a simple method to determine if these pods are fatalii or scorpion ... cut it and sniff the smell, then taste it; the two varieties has very different smell and taste.

[Luca dalla Tailandia 2]

The answer of Chris could be decisive in this case.

However there is a simple method to determine if these pods are fatalii or scorpion ... cut it and sniff the smell, then taste it; the two varieties has very different smell and taste.

 

Chris is informed, I could have asked him first but I wanted to share the background story as it was. Found it interesting from the psychological point of view.

 

PS: about tasting and taste - I wanted to wait until pods are fully ripe as I want to replant some straight away. And tell me which one should taste typically like a chinense, the Scorpio? I have not yet tasted either of them and actually I am not a Capsoholic of that sort. Though I do consume Thai Chilis (among others) everyday, I still have some respect for this Fella!

[Lonewolf 18,106]

tell me which one should taste typically like a chinense, the Scorpio?

 

No, Fatalii has a strong C.chinense smell (with some apricot flavour), while Scorpion (as all the Naga) has a citrus/orange flavour.

More, the Scorpion is hotter than Fatalii.

[cmpman1974 503]

Luca,

 

That is a very interesting looking pepper. First, I must say, I have sent Trinidad Scorpion seed to many European chileheads and other areas of the world. The ironic thing is several members sent me pictures of very interesting looking yellow Scorpion-looking pods. I have never grown anything from my saved seed except the standard red Scorpion pods which are ultra-hot.

 

Luca, the seeds I sent were intended to be the red strain. The yellow is a variant that I believe didn't exist prior to accidental crosses. However, this trait seems to remain true when growing the next generation seeds of the yellow pods. I have a habit of asking people for seed saved from pods I originally sent. lol. Why I can't get lucky and generate my own crosses, who knows?

 

From my experiences, I have yet to see a yellow pod that retains the placental tissue of the "super hots." I have looked for a long time. Luca, if you could cut the pod cross-length and photograph it, I'd be appreciative. I can tell you then if it's a Trinidad Scorpion or Fatalii or cross. Nagalone's flavor description is accurate as well, but many can't get past the massive heat of the Scorpion (including me).

 

I really like the look of those pods. I have grown two versions of a Yellow Scorpion this year, but I'd give both a 8 out of 10 on the heat scale. The original is a 15 out of 10. See pics below.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

I had 1 surviver of two possible during a 3 weeks absence from my home. It could either be a Trinidad scorpio plant, which I thought it was until the first pods turned into a bright yellow (well, some may call it orange)!

 

 

It is possible that it is a yellow Trinidad Skorpio. I got "Scorpio" seeds from Chris but he did actually not specify that it was the yellow strain (as far as I can deduce from his quite cryptic handwriting ). Do you remember Chris (if you are around) what it actually was? Well, otherwise it still could be a cross as well.

 

Anyone has a clue or an opinion about that pod? Thanks!

[Patahontas 5]

Hello Chris could you give some examples of "the placental tissue of the "super hots."". Can you tell if the pepper is superhot by looking at it?

 

Regards

 

Patrik

[Lonewolf 18,106]

One of the typical properties of the super-hot is the internal wall fully covered with placental tissue.

This give them higher scoville rating when test are made on the whole pod.

 

We can say that an unknown pepper is a superhot also looking at this detail, because if this property isn't present the pepper will be for sure less hot.

[Patahontas 5]

Now I understand better thanks guys! I love this gallery of Chris, AMAZING!

CHILES GALORE FORUM

 

now lets get back to Trindad Scorpion Yellow. I will send some pictures when my yellow Trinidad Scorpions have matured.

 

 

Regards

 

Patrik

[cmpman1974 503]

Thanks for the compliment concerning my pictures. It really clarifies placental tissue among super hots. I enjoy documenting the exterior and interior of these varieties as it shows a lot. I look forward to others' pictures of these super hots.

 

Chris

 

 

Now I understand better thanks guys! I love this gallery of Chris, AMAZING!

CHILES GALORE FORUM

 

now lets get back to Trindad Scorpion Yellow. I will send some pictures when my yellow Trinidad Scorpions have matured.

 

 

Regards

 

Patrik

[Luca dalla Tailandia 2]

Ok guys, first of all - here are the pictures I took after surgery...

 

 

 

 

 

The smell and taste is clearly- well, one of the most strongest typical Chinense I've ever smelled and tatsted. Apricot describes it very well, I would even say like nature-identical essence of apricot. It is hot, (I just rubbed the top of a finger on the inside and sticked it in my mouth) but not much hotter then my Murupis. Unfortunately neither me nor anyone else of the seven people living at this home likes Chinense smell or taste that much.

 

No, Fatalii has a strong C.chinense smell (with some apricot flavour), while Scorpion (as all the Naga) has a citrus/orange flavour.

More, the Scorpion is hotter than Fatalii.

 

I understand, though part of what you said here nagalone is intriguing me a bit, as it could mean that the Trinidad Scorpio(n) is a Naga (from Assam/Nagaland?) Maybe it is just a figure of speech and you actually meant "like the Nagas". If one says "as all Nagas" (I could be wrong by understand it that way, but) it would actually mean to me that it is a Naga too.

 

@Pepperlove,

Would you be so very kind and downsize your pictures to some more descent size? I really hate to mention this, but it always takes me ages to open his thread and it gets screwed up every time in wide before the automatic downsizing (of the forum soft) takes care of it. I wouldn't say anything if it wasn't that bugging. I am calling in from Thailand and we still do not have such fast connections as you privileged people overseas.

 

Thank you so much for the understanding!

[Lonewolf 18,106]

Ok guys, first of all - here are the pictures I took after surgery...

 

Ok, it isn't a Scorpion ... Fatalii, I guess, or some other habanero-like.

 

I understand, though part of what you said here nagalone is intriguing me a bit, as it could mean that the Trinidad Scorpio(n) is a Naga (from Assam/Nagaland?) Maybe it is just a figure of speech and you actually meant "like the Nagas". If one says "as all Nagas" (I could be wrong by understand it that way, but) it would actually mean to me that it is a Naga too.

 

Strictly speaking the Scorpion is not a Naga, as it came from Trinidad (such as 7Pod).

But it share all the properties of the superhot from Nagaland (awesome heat, citrus flavor, rough skin etc) so is clear there is a relationship between all them.

However "like the Nagas" should be more precise.

 

Would you be so very kind and downsize your pictures

 

Pepperadmin will post a message on this subject.

[Luca dalla Tailandia 2]

It was actually not my intention to reverse the order, but I now also want to show the pictures of that Pod when it was very small.

Just because of the amazing part that it clearly looked like the sting of a scorpio!

 

 

 

 

About the "discovery" of these so called "ultra-hots" I have got my own opinion and theory. But I am sorry, I will not discuss this topic here and now, as I will stay in good terms with you guys for a little longer!

I've hopefully learned from the past discussions in forums... no more comment, don't even ask.

[Lonewolf 18,106]

The Scorpion isn't the only variety with the sting.

For example the "habanero red #1" from Stuard shows often (almost in 50% of pods) a sting very similar to that of Scorpion.

Also the "habanero mustard" has often a tail, and other varieties sometimes has this appendix (even Bih Jolokia in some cases).

 

About the "discovery" of these so called "ultra-hots" I have got my own opinion and theory. But I am sorry, I will not discuss this topic here and now, as I will stay in good terms with you guys for a little longer!

I've hopefully learned from the past discussions in forums... no more comment, don't even ask.

 

We are very interested to this discussion and there is no reason to break good terms whichever thing you can say.

The most awesome thing you can say is that super hot don't exist (as more than one already said us), but we'll not believe you because we know for sure they are here and are terribly hot

[Luca dalla Tailandia 2]

Right, but the Fatalii actually does not have such a sting, though has a somewhat conic/pointed end.

No, this was just so amazing from a "anecdotic" point of view and it shows what I said earlier about being influenced.

Actually I still believe that it is a cross.

 

About the "Myth" - I was half serious and half kidding - of course.

Well, I live in Asia and I know how tangible the truth can be in this part of the world. Even today, I was about to buy some fruits when I asked if they were ripe and sweet. The lady from the mountains who sold them barely spoke Thai, as she is from a different ethnic group (so called hill tribes). Of course they were sweet, she said. And I said: No Lady, they are sour - and she said no they are sweet like honey! May I taste one, I asked. She said no!

 

I said again that they are sour, they must be sour...and I added, I like them sour as I want to make jam of'm. Ok, she said - they are sour! Of course they were sour as hell and hard like rocks, even not ripe at all!

 

So, here you need to have a different view on truth as you are used to. In the western world we presume that what is said (or given as information) is actually or basically true, or at least supposed to be true, and sometimes there are lies. In Asia, you actually presume the contrary - firstly you presume that what is said is just "some information" that in fact will rather be false than true in your interest. And sometimes only, there will be some truth - actually mostly when there is common interest.

 

So, if you go to Nagaland and ask people: "do these peppers originate here?" or "how long have they been cultivated in this region?" or "are they really called "Ghost Chilis"?" you cannot presume that people will tell you the truth. What ever they say, those "Ghosts" may also be only there since a few years (or a decade) , when a "scholar" from Calcutta came there and told people to sow seeds he brought for free. The only condition: always say that they have been grown here for generations...

 

In some places life is hard, and people do have different ethics. Then the "truth" sometimes is only what is in their interest (as mentioned above) or in some case simply what they are supposed to say, or what they have been told to say.

 

And last but not least: the bigger the lie, the easier people believe it.

 

I see no reason to trust what is said about- and hence do not believe anything of the origin and the "background story" of those "Nagas"... nope. In my opinion they are wether bred (most likely at an Indian University like Calcutta) or even the result of genetic manipulation. Why should the hottest Peppers ever, have evolved in one of the most remote and inaccessible regions of the world? Yes, it may explain why they weren't discovered for so long - but not why and how they have become that pungent there!!! No way

[Lonewolf 18,106]

Interesting theory, Luca.

 

I've no direct knowledge to confirm or negate if Nagas were really originated in Assam/Nagaland or not.

Maybe they are the result of breeding made elsewhere or they were imported in ancient times from the Caribbean or they were a lucky combination of characters in a old hybridization between chinense and frutescens.

(Sometimes it happens that hybrids inter-species get unbelievable properties; we had a remarkable recent example with the Pimenta da Neyde).

 

It wouldn't be the first time that lies are said about the hottest peppers; less than a month ago one of the most valuable peppers expert in the world said me he don't believe to the "legend" on the origin of h.red Savina.

 

However we have to keep in mind a couple of facts.

There are traces of the superhot peppers since early 2000, not only in India, but in Trinidad too.

A document of Cardi already in 2003 reports a scoville rating of 1 million shu for Scorpion and >750 thousands for 7Pod.

A commercial spot of Frontal Agritech assign over 1 million shu to Bih Jolokia long time before Dorset Naga's annoucement.

 

Whatever is the origin of these peppers, the most interesting thing is that we all were "blind" about them.

The superhots were there, but we can't see them because we were so "sure" that nothing could be better than habaneros.

We were so prejudiced that a lot of people (experts too) continued to say me they were a fake even after I got in my hands the first Bih Jolokia and I tasted them (on early summer 2006).

 

Even before the discover of Nagas, there were peppers hotter than habaneros, even if nobody made certified test; everyone knows that Fatalii is hotter than red Savina ...

 

So superhot have really a long story.

Maybe Indians were only so cunning to take the opportunity to enhance their peppers export (but we must not forget that were the Michaud from Dorset (UK) to put these peppers on the map) ...

 

This isn't so important; the good news is that these peppers are a nice reality.

[Bonnet 156]

Well Luca i think you speak english very well and so i made a bit diffcult to understand your point of view, sometimes if people spoke about pepper or others things i don't have some much problems but if someone speak about specific situation and point of view sometimes i take some time for understand very good.

Sorry for this maybe i can distort the original message anyway i think about the situation of naga that all this story not is a conspiracy but in fact is all true. In this last years hot peppers begun to be so famous, internet help for this, more guys, more seeds, more varieties ecc ecc this new world become funny for more guys and them looking for new varieties in the world....found naga morich...and so found 7pod, trinidad scorpion and maybe in future other name will be found in the world. Is so difficult for me thinking about genetic manipulation.....because the same thing must be for the trinidad pods. Ad the habanero? Habanero chocolate it's like fire in mounth. And fatalii?

 

About one week ago i spoke with a guy from Bangladesh, i spoke with him about the hot peppers and he know naga morich, ok them called it with a generic name (name: mirc) like us in italy with name "peperoncino" but he described it very well and made me the drawing of the shape and the color (red of course

he said : "absolute the hot hot hot pepper that we have". There is no reason for make a genetic manipulation, for what? for market? for money? Guinnes? naaaaaa i don't believe.

I think naga morich (or others) become punget because first of all is about the climate situation and after because there is the good situation for make a really good natural selection by year after year. Plants become strong, variety stay stable, more growing for all the year (i think more then three)...it's the perfect situation for get best of the best. And the situation is the same about the caribbean climate.

I think about the pods we grow..well in my hopinion them are differents from the pods in Bangladesh....if i will taste a naga morich from Bangladesh i think i will die. More differents here form there.

 

I think the story about the super hot not is end, i think especially about Bangladesh\India (Trinidad is more famous)..a country so big and so poor, more zone totally unknow, more forests unknow...there, in my hopinion there are others big "hot" news...we will know, maybe one day or maybe never.

[cmpman1974 503]

Luca,

 

One more thing to keep in mind. The Asian seedbank (AVRDC) in Taiwan holds an extensive collection of vegetable seeds. In the early 2000s, they did an expedition to collect indigineous vegetable seeds across Asian nations, specifically Bangladesh. The acquisition dates were 2001-2002. I grow out many species from this seedbank and ironically the Naga "type" pods are and have been in their posession for 7-8 years. This is evidence it existed for a while and only the recent "marketing hype" made it more puiblic. Prior to this, none of us pepper enthusiasts had a clue. I find that interesting as well.

 

How did the superhots get there to begin with? It's something I'll never be able to answer. I do admit they have unnatural properties. As time goes on, we continue to find ones even hotter. I have no doubt Bhut Jolokia is not the heat king...I have tried several that exceed it.

 

Chris

[Luca dalla Tailandia 2]

If my english was a bit to difficult to understand, I guess it is so because it is rather selective and "personal" than good. So, I'll try to put some of it in other words.

 

I do not pretend that it is impossible that we deal with some kind of exceptional "natural evolution", when looking at the "Nagas". But I am a sceptic from nature and I do not believe this easily. I neither pretend that there is a conspiracy, I only mention the high possibility of human interference. Actually the idea of a Indian "intervention" came up to me when thinking of the exceptional skills and talents that nowadays are developed at Indian universities. Though I admit that this is pure speculation. On the other hand, the idea that "scientist" are extremely ambitious while tending to be inconsiderate at the same time is more like a known fact

 

As you can clearly see, we all need to be quite rhetorical or are giving our points through examples instead of being logical and bringing clear evidence or proof, actually not being able to referring to scientific results. That is what I actually had anticipated. Because science and biological research actually have little interest in Capsicum. I guess it is not only due to "interest" but to the fact that they have complicate-, while at the same time easily hybridizing genetics. And that is a problem we have to face all along concerning this- and other discussions.

 

The fact that there are nearly equally hot peppers growing on the other side of the ocean is the most conclusive rhetorical "pro-argument", but on the other side it is only making it more mysterious, as we may ask why this isn't a more common thing!? Trinidad is another remote location. And here again we may say that chances for being discovered only late is highly possible, while the chances for the genetic development of such a exceptional pepper are relatively low due to lack of genetic resources for this exceptional evolution! In another discussion somebody claimed that nature can do amazing things. The example of tiger and lion was cited, which used to cross at the time when their habitat was close. The famous "Ligers" (Panthera leo × Panthera tigris). True to some extend, but a Liger is just a tiger with diffused stripes, not some kind of ferocious monster, never seen before!

 

When Chris is mentioning the "earlier" recordings of the AVRDC in Taiwan (which actually has a office in Bangkok too) it is the only argument that is based on a so called scientific fact. But it actually does not contradict what I said, when I was bringing up the idea that these peppers may only exist for some years or a decade. And can someone tell me why it is that the guys and girls from AVRDC list all Morich from Bangladesh as C. Annuums except 3? One is even called Bombay Morich (the others are BATASA MORICH and BOONBAI MORICH/POTKA MORICH). Btw: there is only a single C. Frutescens listed for Bangladesh (called ZOOM MORICH).

 

AVRDC or USDA have their own ways of recording peppers. They have a purely scientific method to record taxonomic data and according to the relevance they give to other data. They do not care about local names that much, while USDA records them (if ever they are available) USDA gives them a "serial number" and truly gives a "frack" about what they are called locally, and even less about the anecdotic background. Maybe because it is too subjective, compared what they are actually interested in. So we can only get from them what they think is relevant and hence have recorded.

 

By the way it happens to me too, browsing the search engine of AVRDC. They have also records of some (estimated 75-100) different varieties from Thailand. Difficult to say because there are many double and triple records in this data base - actually there is a total of 218 records of Thai Peppers!). Most records date back to the mid- and late 80-ties and were revised (updated res. recorded double by mistake) a few years later and/or in the early 90-ties. There are even 43 peppers that are recorded as UNKNOWN 1 - UNKNOWN 43! The english transcription from local Thai names (when available) is quite "unusual" and due to the fact it was made by people who do not master both languages phonetically. The photos are of very low resolution and one may think those peppers look all the same. Amazing on one side and frustrating on the other..., because you can't deduce anything from it except meticulously recorded taxonomic data.

[cmpman1974 503]

I can see your point as well that it's odd such a strange pod exists with unnatural heat qualities. You would think one would exist in Mexico, Africa, etc.

 

Most genetic seedbanks do an extremely poor job of providing history and a high percentage of their stock is incorrectly detailed. The USDA changes taxonomy quickly. AVRDC has many, many multiples and their pictures are hard to interpret.

 

Boonbai / Potka Morich is another "superhot." Bombay Morich is a Naga Morich. Very few people grew the first. It's much like a 7 pod w/o the pebbled skin, but the pods are extremely painful to eat! It's got the super hot placental tissue. I grew Zoom Morich this year. It is a C. Frutescens and I enjoyed it a lot. It produces incredible amounts of pods.

 

 

I don't think any government organization will ever have the "passion" for categorizing peppers, reviewing history, etc. as hobbyists. It's just a task to preserve varieties. Only when individuals such as Paul Bosland get involved will the situation be improved.

 

The only institution that is quite thorough with peppers is CGN (Netherlands). They have wonderful documentation and top-notch photos.

 

Chris

 

 

If my english was a bit to difficult to understand, I guess it is so because it is rather selective and "personal" than good. So, I'll try to put some of it in other words.

 

I do not pretend that it is impossible that we deal with some kind of exceptional "natural evolution", when looking at the "Nagas". But I am a sceptic from nature and I do not believe this easily. I neither pretend that there is a conspiracy, I only mention the high possibility of human interference. Actually the idea of a Indian "intervention" came up to me when thinking of the exceptional skills and talents that nowadays are developed at Indian universities. Though I admit that this is pure speculation. On the other hand, the idea that "scientist" are extremely ambitious while tending to be inconsiderate at the same time is more like a known fact

 

As you can clearly see, we all need to be quite rhetorical or are giving our points through examples instead of being logical and bringing clear evidence or proof, actually not being able to referring to scientific results. That is what I actually had anticipated. Because science and biological research actually have little interest in Capsicum. I guess it is not only due to "interest" but to the fact that they have complicate-, while at the same time easily hybridizing genetics. And that is a problem we have to face all along concerning this- and other discussions.

 

The fact that there are nearly equally hot peppers growing on the other side of the ocean is the most conclusive rhetorical "pro-argument", but on the other side it is only making it more mysterious, as we may ask why this isn't a more common thing!? Trinidad is another remote location. And here again we may say that chances for being discovered only late is highly possible, while the chances for the genetic development of such a exceptional pepper are relatively low due to lack of genetic resources for this exceptional evolution! In another discussion somebody claimed that nature can do amazing things. The example of tiger and lion was cited, which used to cross at the time when their habitat was close. The famous "Ligers" (Panthera leo × Panthera tigris). True to some extend, but a Liger is just a tiger with diffused stripes, not some kind of ferocious monster, never seen before!

 

When Chris is mentioning the "earlier" recordings of the AVRDC in Taiwan (which actually has a office in Bangkok too) it is the only argument that is based on a so called scientific fact. But it actually does not contradict what I said, when I was bringing up the idea that these peppers may only exist for some years or a decade. And can someone tell me why it is that the guys and girls from AVRDC list all Morich from Bangladesh as C. Annuums except 3? One is even called Bombay Morich (the others are BATASA MORICH and BOONBAI MORICH/POTKA MORICH). Btw: there is only a single C. Frutescens listed for Bangladesh (called ZOOM MORICH).

 

AVRDC or USDA have their own ways of recording peppers. They have a purely scientific method to record taxonomic data and according to the relevance they give to other data. They do not care about local names that much, while USDA records them (if ever they are available) USDA gives them a "serial number" and truly gives a "frack" about what they are called locally, and even less about the anecdotic background. Maybe because it is too subjective, compared what they are actually interested in. So we can only get from them what they think is relevant and hence have recorded.

 

By the way it happens to me too, browsing the search engine of AVRDC. They have also records of some (estimated 75-100) different varieties from Thailand. Difficult to say because there are many double and triple records in this data base - actually there is a total of 218 records of Thai Peppers!). Most records date back to the mid- and late 80-ties and were revised (updated res. recorded double by mistake) a few years later and/or in the early 90-ties. There are even 43 peppers that are recorded as UNKNOWN 1 - UNKNOWN 43! The english transcription from local Thai names (when available) is quite "unusual" and due to the fact it was made by people who do not master both languages phonetically. The photos are of very low resolution and one may think those peppers look all the same. Amazing on one side and frustrating on the other..., because you can't deduce anything from it except meticulously recorded taxonomic data.

[Luca dalla Tailandia 2]

I can see your point as well that it's odd such a strange pod exists with unnatural heat qualities. You would think one would exist in Mexico, Africa, etc.

 

Well yes, even though this is your own reversal conclusion. I actually do not necessarily think "one or the other" would or should exist around the world. I only think that (as it wouldn't be odd enough) the region of Nagaland is actually not the place where such "ultra hot" would develop best. On the contrary, as I said: (sorry for repeating myself) at such remote place were much fewer genetic resources available for such occurrence as in many other places. That is why I hardly believe in a natural development. Do not forget: natural evolution is always damn slow!